In a lot of ways, Mike Pence was perceived as a wimp by both friend and foe. Trump told him he was a wimp because he did not subscribe to the attempted coup by Trump against the US government in January 2021. But Pence, unfortunately, long appeared like a wimp that dared not stand up to Trump early on. Just like the other Republicans who lined up like ducks in a row to kiss the ring of the dictator, Pence only stood up to Trump when Trump's mob was yelling "Hang Mike Pence" as it stormed the Capitol on that fateful day.
Now Pence is trying to set things straight in ABC News Chief Washington Correspondent Jonathan Karl's book entitled, "Retribution: Donald Trump and the Campaign that Changed America."
As was the case with Julius Cesar, Adolf Hitler and other mad dictators, their immediate entourage initially supported them with the belief that they could always rein them in. When signs of a deliberate coup aiming at dismantling the republic began appearing, traditional Republicans cowered in terror, went along and converted to the MAGA cult, still believing they can rescue the republic by "managing" the dictator.
Alas, it never works that way. There usually aren't enough courageous people to call a spade a spade, and those who did got skewered. Not because of the dictator, but because of the other sycophants who preferred to "go along" and preserve their stations. Corporate America is the prime example of those individuals (hiding behind their corporations and the interests of their stakeholders) bending the knee to Trump, kissing his ring, and pulling their pants down on all fours, just to stay in the dictator's good graces.
Mike Pence thinks that by belatedly "telling it all" to Jonathan Karl he can regain some respect from his fellow Americans, he is missing the mark. Telling the country that he was a victim of Trump for just one day on January 6, 2021 won't erase his long 4-years-minus-one-day cowering and bending to his demented lunatic boss and covering up for him.
I have not read the book and probably won't. I'll let others gag as they read it and tell us about it.
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Pence's never-before-published notes key evidence in case against Trump, book says
PETER CHARALAMBOUS
Sun, October 26, 2025
Donald Trump berated Mike Pence, calling his then-vice president a "wimp" during their final phone call on Jan. 6, 2021, hours before Congress certified the 2020 election of Joe Biden, according to Pence's previously unpublished notes included in a new book by ABC News Chief Washington Correspondent Jonathan Karl.
According to court filings, had his case against Trump gone to trial, special counsel Jack Smith planned to use the handwritten notes -- hastily scribbled on Pence's day planner -- as evidence to document the hours before Trump allegedly directed a violent mob to storm the Capitol.
Erin Schaff/Getty Images, FILE - PHOTO: Vice President Mike Pence presides over a joint session of Congress to certify the 2020 Electoral College results on January 6, 2021, in Washington, D.C.
"You'll go down as a wimp," Trump told Pence about his decision not to block Biden's certification, according to Pence's notes about the call on the morning of Jan. 6, just before the president took the stage at the "Save America" rally on the Ellipse. "If you do that, I made a big mistake 5 years ago," Pence wrote Trump told him.
The exclusive details are reported in Karl's upcoming book, "Retribution: Donald Trump and the Campaign that Changed America."
Bill O'Leary/The Washington Post via Getty Images - PHOTO: Special Prosecutor Jack Smith walks away after addressing reporters after his grand jury has issued more indictments of former President Donald Trump in Washington, DC.
The notes also include what appears to be a scribble of an angry emoji after Trump told Pence, "You listen to the wrong people," according to Karl.
Among the terabytes of evidence Smith amassed in his investigation, including a forensic copy of Trump's own phone documenting his digital activity on Jan. 6, are draft versions of his speech on the Ellipse showing it was hurriedly changed to target Pence directly. The materials were never publicly released before the dismissal of the case following Trump's reelection, creating a gap in the historical record of the former-and-future president's alleged actions.
In his final report to Attorney General Merrick Garland made public this past January, Smith said the evidence his team gathered would have proved that Trump "used lies as a weapon to defeat a federal government function foundational to the United States' democratic process."
Karl reports the materials might have been some of the government's strongest documentary evidence about the days leading up to the Jan. 6 insurrection, but that the Supreme Court's July 2024 ruling on presidential immunity potentially curtailed Smith's ability to use the evidence against Trump had the prosecution proceeded.
Penguin Random House - PHOTO: "Retribution," a new book by Jonathan Karl.
Before resigning in January, Smith argued in his report to Garland that he had enough evidence to convict the former president had voters not sent him back to the White House in 2024.
"The Department's view that the Constitution prohibits the continued indictment and prosecution of a President is categorical and does not turn on the gravity of the crimes charged, the strength of the Government's proof, or the merits of the prosecution, which the Office stands fully behind," Smith wrote to conclude the report. "Indeed, but for Mr. Trump's election and imminent return to the Presidency, the Office assessed that the admissible evidence was sufficient to obtain and sustain a conviction at trial."
ABC News - PHOTO: ABC's "This Week" aired Mike Pence's interview with co-anchor Jonathan Karl on March 19, 2023.
'You'll go down as a wimp'
According to Smith's original indictment of the former president, Pence's "contemporaneous notes" of his meetings with Trump documented how the then-president was repeatedly corrected about his false claims of voter fraud, suggesting that he continued to push the claims despite knowing they were unfounded.
In the days preceding the certification of the 2020 election, Trump and his allies had repeatedly pressured Pence to use his role overseeing the certification to block Biden's victory, though Pence said he consistently rebuffed entreaties to manipulate or delay the certification.
Anadolu Agency via Getty Images, FILE - PHOTO: President Donald Trump speaks at the "Save America March" rally in Washington D.C., Jan. 6, 2021.
According to Pence's memoir "So Help Me God," he received a phone call from Trump around 11 a.m. on Jan. 6 -- the time Trump was originally scheduled to begin his speech on the Ellipse -- during which Trump allegedly made his final attempt to persuade him to block the election's certification.
According to Pence's notes, Trump called him a "wimp" after Pence said he planned to issue a statement saying he lacked the "power" to block the certification.
ABC News - PHOTO: ABC's "This Week" aired Mike Pence's interview with co-anchor Jonathan Karl on March 19, 2023.
"You're not protecting our country, you're supposed to support + defend our country," Pence wrote, according to Karl.
"I said we both [took] an oath to support + defend the Constitution," Pence said, according to his notes Karl reports. "It doesn't take courage to break the law. It takes courage to uphold the law."
Mandel Ngan/AFP via Getty Images, FILE - PHOTO: House Select Committee to Investigate the January 6 Attack on the U.S. Capitol holds its last public hearing, Dec. 19, 2022, in Washington, D.C.
Multiple witnesses in the White House that morning told the House Select Committee on Jan. 6 that the conversation between Pence and Trump quickly became "heated," with Trump's daughter Ivanka Trump recalling that her father used a "different tone" from what she'd previously heard him use with Pence.
"I remember hearing the word 'wimp,'" Nicholas Luna, Trump's former assistant, said in a taped deposition. "Either he called him a wimp, I don't remember if he said, 'You are a wimp, you'll be a wimp.' Wimp is the word I remember."
Retired Lt. Gen. Keith Kellogg -- Trump's special envoy for Ukraine and Russia -- told the committee in a taped deposition that he remembers Trump telling Pence he wasn't "tough enough."
Approximately an hour after their conversation, Trump would take the stage and call on his supporters to march toward the Capitol where Pence was set to certify the vote.
Trump's iPhone
Prosecutors were able to support their timeline of events in part using a forensic copy of Trump's iPhone, which showed a breakdown of when the phone was locked and unlocked by the president on the afternoon of Jan. 6, Karl reports.
According to Karl, the report also included a screenshot of Trump's iPhone lock screen, which showed an image of Trump in a red MAGA hat giving a thumbs-up.
Trump's phone also appeared to contain evidence demonstrating that Trump understood he had lost the election and was aware of the extent of the violence taking place at the Capitol, the book says.
Tayfun Coskun/Anadolu Agency via Getty Images, FILE - PHOTO: President Donald Trumps supporters gather outside the Capitol building in Washington D.C., Jan. 6, 2021.
According to Karl, the FBI's report on Trump's phone showed that the device was used to access multiple images that depicted the violence at the Capitol, including violent confrontations between officers and protestors, and photos of then-mortally wounded Ashli Babbitt, who was later pronounced dead at the hospital after being shot as she tried to enter the House floor. At 7 p.m. on Jan. 6 -- the same day Trump was suspended from the social media platform -- his phone was also used to visit a Twitter help page about accounts locked on Jan. 6, one day after Trump was locked out of his Twitter account, Karl reports.
Smith would have used the digital forensic evidence to demonstrate Trump's state of mind and knowledge of events as they unfolded to support the special counsel's allegation that Trump knowingly deceived voters about the election result, the book says.
"The throughline of all of Mr. Trump's criminal efforts was deceit," Smith wrote in the final report.
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